Episode #86: Inclusivity for Small Business Owners with Jayne Ashby

Today I’m chatting with Jayne Ashby, a qualified life and career coach helping independent businesses talk about diversity and become more inclusive. We discuss what inclusivity means, why small business owners should be thinking about it, the fears that get in the way, and how we make this part of the conversation and be willing to make mistakes along the way. This is SUCH a helpful chat, enjoy!

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Ruth Poundwhite 0:06
You're listening to creatively human with honest conversations about what matters to us and how it really feels to build an online business, put our work out into the world, make an impact in our own unique way, and importantly, to get well paid for it. I'm your host, Ruth Poundwhite, business mentor to quietly ambitious humans. Hi, and welcome back to another interview on Creative the human podcast. Today I'm chatting with Jane Ashby a qualified life and career coach helping Independent Businesses talk about diversity and to become more inclusive. We discuss what inclusivity means, why small business owners should be thinking about this, the fears that get in the way, and how we can just make it part of the conversation and be willing to make mistakes along the way. Honestly, this is such a helpful chat. So enjoy. Okay, so let's start with possibly a big and complex question. But what does inclusivity mean?

Jayne Ashby 1:12
Oh, so inclusivity means I should caveat that this is to me, my interpretation inclusivity means that we all welcome. And we are all free to navigate spaces, levels, environments. And that any difficulties that we may have as individuals, or as groups that might be seen or unseen, or taken into account, to allow us to navigate those spaces. That's what inclusivity means to me. Yeah.

Ruth Poundwhite 2:04
And what do you think it means in the context of, so most of the people listening to this will have a small business, a lot of the people listening to this will be working with people potentially as coaches, therapists, course creators, artists, kind of independent creative people. What would you say that inclusivity means to them?

Jayne Ashby 2:36
from a point of view as being a business owner,

Ruth Poundwhite 2:40
yeah. Or like, yeah, in the context of business?

Jayne Ashby 2:46
I think when you're a business owner, it's looking at there's so many different layers in there as well. So it's, it could be who's buying your product? or service? Who has access to your product or service? Who your suppliers are? Do you only deal with particular suppliers who, you know, may be big and well known? Or, you know, so how? How can you get kind of smaller suppliers on board that that might offer you something different? It's, it's looking at all your foundations of your business? And just ensuring that there is accessibility I guess? Yeah. I started to think about because it's, I think it's, it's very individual, isn't it, because obviously, if you are a coach, and inclusivity, within your business is going to be very different than if you are a one person business that is making a product from your bedroom. You know, it's totally different to the levels of inclusiveness that you can maybe facilitate. But I think there are all steps. They're all things that we can do, no matter how big or how small our businesses are. And no matter sort of what channels as well that we use, yeah, yeah.

Ruth Poundwhite 4:36
So I like what you said about looking at all the different facets of your business. I think that's a really useful way to think of it because a lot of us properly have a really, what's the word, like a narrow idea of what inclusivity really means. And I should say at this point, obviously, we've been working together and talking about this in the context of my business and you've certainly opened my eyes To the fact that inclusivity can apply to so many, like all the different areas of my business, like you said, the people that I'm working with, but also the people that work for me, and the services I choose to invest in, and all of that stuff. So I think it's really useful to see it that way. And I'm guessing that, because I know when I started working with you, or before I started working with you, I, I probably sent you an email or it was certainly on my mind, if I if I even if I didn't ask you about it, like, is this something I need to be doing in my business like, is my business at that stage, because I don't really have a massive team, I don't really have a massive audience, I don't really have loads and loads of clients is something I really need to be doing my business. So if someone came to you with that question, what would you say to them?

Jayne Ashby 6:01
I'm trying to think of the most probably, I would say, the majority of the time, I'd be like, Yep, absolutely. Because again, I think sort of when we're in our businesses, we're kind of keeping them going, and we're doing what we do. But we don't actually step outside and just look and just double check and make sure it's clear about what our values are, for instance, what language that we use within our marketing material, for instance, or imagery that we use the pricing of our services, for instance, you know, is that inclusive? It's, it runs through everything that we do, personally and professionally. So if somebody was like, yeah, you know, I think we have that thought, don't worry that we think that Oh, okay, if you are, and Facebook, or Google or Coca Cola, or you know, you're a big business, you absolutely need to be looking at what inclusion means. But even don't think about what that means if you are a much smaller company, or a five person business, or a one person company. And I think Yeah, from the moment that you have your idea, to start your business, is from the moment where inclusion should also be a part of your strategy. Hmm.

Ruth Poundwhite 7:33
I love that I'm trying to write down that what you just said, as I'm talking because I think that that's so important. From the moment you start, what was it from the moment you actually start your business, that's when you should start competing?

Jayne Ashby 7:46
Yeah, because and I think just to kind of elaborate, where I'm where I'm thinking, the reasons behind that is because then you start to have a bit of a plan as to who you want to talk to how you can talk to these people, how you can grow your business, it's there, it's you're planting that seed at the very early stages. And like, as we know, with anything to do with business, you have your best intentions, you say that you're going left and then you're done, you have to go right, and then you have to step back and the directions will always change. But ultimately, from the moment that you've made that decision, you're like this is this is what I'm going to hopefully achieve. And this is where I'm heading. So why isn't inclusion a part of that?

Ruth Poundwhite 8:33
Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of people listening to this will agree that they have strong values in life in general. And I know how easy it is. I mean, it's not even, it's not even just a question for those who are planning on growing a really big like, I know, some people listening to this will be like, yes, my business is small now, but I'm growing it. But some people listening to this, we'll be thinking my business is small. And I like it that way. I'm not planning on growing it really big. But even then, it's still getting clear on those values and what matters to you. And making decisions from that place, I think, is really, really important. Because it's very easy to just choose things and do things without thinking about because you know, we spend a lot of time like doing the work. We don't necessarily spend as much time as we could or should on the bigger picture of the business because we're busy, you know, doing the work. And before you know it, you've made choices, or you've put things out there that haven't actually been aligned with your values, but you haven't you can't even see it. And sometimes.

Jayne Ashby 9:41
Yeah, and that does happen. And that's and I think, and we will talk about this more but I think it's important to remember that inclusion like everything else. I'm not going to like accounting for instance, you know, is It's like we're gonna get things wrong. But it's it's there, which it's setting that intention in the very early stages. And going back to that intention as well as our businesses change. Just checking in what's changed for me? what's worked? What hasn't? What can I do more of? What do I need to do less of? You would do that with all the other parts of your business. So why would you not do that? When it comes to thinking, actually, how inclusive? Am I being, you know, who is buying my products? We should be looking at that all the time.

Ruth Poundwhite 10:34
Yeah, absolutely. And I would also just add to anyone listening, like, I mean, I've always been really the one thing I've always been intentional about is, is my kind of values. And one thing, although I've definitely gone deeper on that, since we've been working together, and that's obviously been an intentional process to go through them and get clear on them. But I do think it just helps you make decisions. And there's just so many options. And if you're like a sensitive business owner, if you're an anxious person, if you tend to overthink stuff, it takes a lot of the thinking out of it, because it's like, okay, I choose the thing that's in line with my values. And that's what I do.

Jayne Ashby 11:11
But is absolutely it, isn't it, you're narrow, you're narrowing things down. And I was actually working with somebody quite recently. And we were again, talking about making it really clear on their values, because they're starting a new business. And it's, and it means that when you are when you are looking at who to collaborate with, it's really quite simple. It's like, do you fit? Do we do we fit? Are we just working together? Because I'm just thinking, Oh, great. Like that can be somebody I can work with. And it might get me more exposure? Or actually does it really, truly fit with who you are as a business owner, and the values of your business? And it's going it's great, because it's that lovely little fun and all the things that, you know, you kind of can get distracted by and brings you back into the focus and the core of of what you're doing and why you're doing it.

Ruth Poundwhite 12:06
Yeah, absolutely. And I think something that I've really become aware of is the fact that you get to make choices in alignment with those values from day one, like you said, it's not a like, it's not okay, so let me build my business. Let me get it all sorted. And then I'll consider inclusivity. And then I'll consider all of my values more. And whether it's all working, it's like, you get to choose that from day one. And you get to make every decision in line with that from day one. It's not a like some day thing. It's a thing you can do now, basically. Yeah,

Jayne Ashby 12:40
exactly. I absolutely agree with that. And it's hard, though, isn't it? It's it's difficult, because again, like with everything, and sometimes we get distracted, sometimes we get things wrong. And that's okay. But we are in control. These are our choices, especially if, you know, we're communicating as our own business owners that we've set up our businesses. You know, we are in that control, we can change when we need to change things really quickly. And the amount of businesses that I'm sure that have actually changed, you know, how they function over the last year and a half? Because probably of their size, they've been able to do that, you know, that's what I mean, we have that in our control. So use that. And, you know, have that power to sort of educate others as well. Hmm.

Ruth Poundwhite 13:44
I really like that reminder that Yeah, we are in control, because I know that it doesn't always feel like it when you're running your own business. But yeah, we have the power to make those choices. And actually, I thought it might be important to say right now, but if you're listening to this, and you haven't been intentional about it like it's okay, right? Like, there will be people here listening to this. And I'm just thinking they might be like, I didn't I didn't start thinking about this when I first started my business. I mean, I wasn't thinking about all this when I started my business either. So I get it. And maybe this would be maybe it'd be useful to go into how can people get started? So whether they are doing it all right, and they are just starting their business, and they're thinking about this from day one, or like most people, they've been in this business for a while, maybe some, maybe they've had their eyes opened to some of the ways in which they're not being inclusive or other people are affected by other businesses practices. And they are they just want to do something now to run a business more in line with their values. What would be your advice for people who want to get started to think about this seriously, and to make it a real part of their business strategy?

Jayne Ashby 14:55
Oh, I think the first thing is that you have to kind of take some time. I'm out and look at your values. And in turn because of because I, I firmly believe that when we start a business, a bit of us, in fact, a lot of us will go into our businesses. So what are your values? And what are the business values? I'm really kind of getting into those. And then you have to sort of have another layer of Okay, so how can I demonstrate these values? And is it that if one of your values is, for instance, making sure that your product or service is available to all elements of your products or services are available to people on different income levels? For instance? It's like, Well, actually, how is that truly being replicated? If that is one of your values, is that really coming through? Is that really coming through with you know, the language that you're using? Do you have evidence that people are, you know that the different types of people using your product or service, it's, it's starting to have a little bit of a kind of drill down, little kind of business overview, to make sure that the values that you initially decided that these are the values that you're going to use to set up your business? Are you still actually adhering to those, that would always be my first thing. My next thing I think, would be to, I always encourage people, I have a love hate relationship with social media, I should say. And I'm very mindful of how it can affect people. But a really big positive, I think, with social media is that you can instantly broaden your horizons, you can instantly and quite easily find people who may look different to you and sound different to you and have different backgrounds, but may still ultimately have something in common. So if you are passionate about conservation, and passionate about the outdoors, you will be able to find people who look different to you, who also share that same passion. And so look at your value. So looking at your business values, really drilling down as to if you're actually are making those business values apparent, so that people can find you. And then also broadening your horizons as well. Looking for people with different opinions, and different experiences. And starting to kind of, you know, just open your mind and maybe have those conversations with people that you love and trust so that it helps you just starting to think differently and start to kind of think, Oh, I never really thought about it in that way. They will probably be my my first two. Two things to do. Yeah, yeah. I was going to say something else. But I think I will leave that to when we talk about maybe why not? why people don't do anything.

Ruth Poundwhite 18:18
Okay. Okay. I just wanted to reflect something you said about like, firstly, having your values but then demonstrate how do you demonstrate those values? And I think that's the difference, isn't it between thinking about stuff and having the nice ideas and actually doing it? You know, and it's obvious, but I just, it just made me think like, how many of us call ourselves like values based businesses? But how often are we really looking at those values and making sure they are played out in the way we do things? So I think it's really, really important. And the whole, like, social media thing. I mean, when we were chatting about what we were going to talk about before we hit record on this. I mean, one of the questions you had for me, it was like, What got me what was the catalyst that encouraged me to prioritise inclusion in my business and social media was definitely massive for me, because there's so many negatives to social media. And if you don't actively seek out people who are different to you in whatever way that is, you can get in a bubble of people who are just exactly like you. But once you start looking for people who are different to you intentionally, but within the same kind of, you know, you have stuff in common, like you said,

Jayne Ashby 19:29
it brought

Ruth Poundwhite 19:29
social media has broadened my horizons massively. And I think that that probably was the catalyst for me, like thinking more about this work, because you don't know what you don't know. Right? Yeah. Like, in terms of like, I have learned so much. For example. I'm just thinking of something I saw today. It was about accessibility on Instagram stories and like different fonts that you use and things like that. I have no idea about that stuff yet. And people are sharing it. And it's not even just people sharing it. It's people talking about who they are and how they Their lives and anything. It's just, that's just one tiny example. And I would say that that has been a massive catalyst for me. And having a podcast also made me a bit more intentional about seeking out a diverse range of guests. And I and we've obviously talked about this in our calls, but I still like people with different opinions and different life experiences that I would like to reach or like to interview. But it has made me really intentional about finding new people on social media is the absolute best way for me as a podcaster to find amazing people to interview. And, yeah, so I just, I felt that was a good point to add that in, because there are so many negatives to social media, but that is one of the positives, but you do have to be intentional, I think about finding those people in the first place.

Jayne Ashby 20:48
Absolutely. And you can also develop, it's about developing kind of, you know, relationships with people online, but in a really natural and organic way. It's not just kind of like, Oh, you look different. Now, it's kind of chat or let's work together. But it's, this is when I think social media is amazing, because people do share so much about their lives. And as you say, there are so many things that you think, why would I know? And you wouldn't know, because we haven't been speaking about things. So you wouldn't necessarily be in that environment where you have to find out how if if you know, you, you've got very limited sight, how do you still use Instagram? Yeah, yeah. You know, and things like that. And it's great, you know, it's really useful to, to have that knowledge to be aware, to think, is this something I can do? You know, if a lot of your business is spent on social media, why would you not want to just make what you put out there a little bit more inclusive, so that more people can be aware of what you do. And you know, it's a win win by doing that. But you have to be intentional when you're spending that time when you are developing new relation. Chips when you are learning about new experiences. But I love it. And as much as it can be very noisy, and it can be it feels sometimes quite shouty. Yeah, when you are. Or when you are finding out new bits of information. And you're you know, you're kind of like messaging somebody different. And you kind of feel that you're like, Oh, my God, we're really connected. And yet, we would have never connected if it wasn't for, you know, whatever social media use. It's, it's really exciting. And it's lovely. That's when it's lovely. Yeah,

Ruth Poundwhite 22:41
yeah, absolutely. So I guess moving on from that, let's talk about some of the feelings and the fears that come up. Because, like you said, social media can feel shouty and sometimes. I mean, there are amazing people educating people on social media about all kinds of things. And they do an incredible job. And sometimes when you read something, so for example, the thing about the text, the text fonts on stories, or something, I could read that and instantly go, Oh my God, I've been doing it wrong, beat myself up, or I could even be angry, like Who are they to complain about what font I use on Instagram, right? So I made? I don't know, let's talk a bit about that. Like, because I think that that is part of the thing that can hold us back from doing the work because it is scary to feel like you're going to make a mistake, or you're going to get told off or worse, you know?

Jayne Ashby 23:34
Yeah. It's, I was thinking actually about this because I find it quite interesting. Because I know that I would say that the primary the primary reason why everyone is like, Oh, I haven't done it, even if they thinking about it, and maybe haven't taken that first step is probably fear. And then you're like, Okay, so you're, you know, you're very conscious, no, you're afraid of getting it wrong. You know, looking silly, as you said, getting told off. But it's like, you're letting that fear stop you. And how is anything going to change? If you're not going to kind of like actually think I can grow from this, I can learn from this in the way that you've just seen, you know, you just you've learned something about fonts, and sizes and colours and how you how they can be more accessible. It's not a personal attack on on you as a human. And it's not that you intentionally went out there and said, I'm just going to use this I don't care if nobody can read. You know, it's a learning and I think we all need to be a little bit more you know, kind of growth mindset about things. We are all Trying to get things wrong, everybody, and whether it is talking about things like inclusion or diversity, or whether it's my inability to do maths, and I'm speaking personally, you know, I'm going to get things wrong. But it's been, it's being gracious and actually being able to say, oh, brilliant, thank you so much for explaining that to me. Thank you so much for telling me how to pronounce your name. Yes, yes, it isn't. It's little things like that, that actually, you know, and then you can kind of go away and go, Oh, god, I'm so you know, but then it's fine. Because I can guarantee that once you've kind of made that mistake, and if somebody has corrected you, the other person will be so pleased that you've accepted that graciously. You've accepted their comments and their feedback graciously. And I bet you sort of things will come from that, you know, friendships and chats will come from that further on further down the line. I think what's probably interesting, and I is, because of me being a black woman, I'm still unsure about why people are afraid. And I try and promote an environment where we have conversations, it's not about shouting at somebody, and trying to ruin them on Instagram, or, you know, kind of posting something on Google reviews or something about service. I would rather have a conversation with somebody behind the scenes to sort of say, let's talk about that. Why do you feel that way? Or, you know, and I think we all need to be a little bit more like that. And be more accepting is when somebody might come to us behind the scenes and say, oh, by the way, a little bit offensive, and at least then you can come back and say, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean for it to come out that way. Or bear that in mind next time. You know, by using fear, as a reason for not doing anything. Whilst I understand it. I also am a little bit frustrated by that. Yeah, absolutely.

Ruth Poundwhite 27:25
Yeah. And I think one of the key things that's come up in our conversations together is always that it is a conversation, it's been so helpful to see it that way. For me, probably in our first session, I was like, worried about saying the wrong thing, or like not knowing what I don't know, you know, but you just told me it's conversation, and we talked about it. And if we don't know, we talk about it, or if we do it wrong, we talk about it. And I mean, one of the things we were working on recently was I was setting up some rules for my Facebook community. And one of the key things is it, let's have a conversation if something goes wrong, you know, if I haven't, if I've missed something unintentionally, but something feels harmful or excluding to someone, let's have a conversation about it. Now, obviously, I know, there's other layers to that, because it's like, how safe do they feel to have a conversation with me? Yeah, it is a very useful way of looking at it for me,

Jayne Ashby 28:18
definitely. All you can do, I think is, is provide that and make it clear, you can. So when we're talking about things like a community, as long as your values are clear, and as long as it's, it's very obvious that you are trying to be welcoming. That's all you can do. I might not I might be a member of your community, and a situation might have occurred. And just because of who I am, I might feel that I can't bring that up with you. That's not your fault. As long as it's really clear that your values are stated. And, and maybe there's an agreement that everybody who's a member of that community will know. And it's reiterated, you know, in in different places. But it's not if I don't feel comfortable. That's up to me, but as long as you're there providing that safe environment, to the best of your ability. That's, that's, that's all you can do is that you can just hope that people will come and talk to you. Yeah,

Ruth Poundwhite 29:26
yeah, absolutely. I hope that I hope that people listening to this who are a bit afraid. Hope it makes a difference. And just knowing that because even things that I've deliberately intentionally doing in my business now, you know, I wasn't doing necessarily a few months ago, or a couple years ago, and I definitely feel more confident in not beating myself up about that. I mean, that's basically pointless. I mean, just using my energy from this point forward on doing Better is the key, I think. Absolutely. I was

Jayne Ashby 30:05
just them. It made me think about when did we all? Or when did being a little bit vulnerable? become so bad? When? When did it become bad to say, I'm so sorry, I got that wrong. What sort of changed about that? Because as who we are as people, as humans, we are going to make mistakes. We're not going to know the answers all the time. So why can you not say, I'm so sorry, I got that wrong, it is not my intention. It's very different if your intentions are horrible. But when your intention isn't like that, it's not, you know, it's, it doesn't serve anyone by being aggressive, or kind of getting upset, or again, beating yourself up about, I should have known that I should have got that right. First time, we're not going to, we're not going to so much happens. So much more growth and development happens, doesn't it when we get things wrong, or when we fail. And as as business owners, we are going to be able to, you know, count on, you know, there'll be so many times that we'll have made mistakes. And in a way, this isn't any different, isn't it? We will make a mistake, but we will grow. And hopefully we can take our clients and our customers and our friends and whoever else with us on our journey of growth and encourage others. Yeah, yeah,

Ruth Poundwhite 31:40
absolutely. And just sort of going back to like, not beating myself up about the stuff I didn't used to do. There's probably a lot of stuff that I will think about more or learn or change in the future that I'm not doing now. And that's important to remember as well. I don't know what I don't know. But you're making the effort to learn, I suppose if you if you're just like, I don't know things, but you don't make any effort, then that's another story. But yeah,

Jayne Ashby 32:03
exactly. Exactly. And also, you might learn things along the way that you think I really can't do that. That's not right for my business right now. Or I can't see a time when that business, but as long as you're kind of considering it. And you're thinking you just tried to think a little bit more holistically, I guess, about what you can and can't do.

Ruth Poundwhite 32:32
Yeah. And one thing I wanted to say, I have to say that focusing on inclusivity, and talking to you about it has been a lot different than what I expected it to be so Oh, a lot. I mean, so yeah. Seems like a glowing testimonial for you this focus or so. But basically, I thought it was gonna be things like, you know, figuring out the rules for my facebook group and having policies in place. And that is part of it. Obviously, it's really good to put these things into some like policy that I have for my business. I know, you know, I can apply it to different things. But I didn't realise how much it would consider me to think about that big vision I have for my business, and what really matters to me, basically, the legacy that I want my business to have, that's the side of it, that I didn't realise, would become so clear. And that's obviously it's, it's partly a selfish thing. It's partly like, for my own benefit, but it's also how does my benefit? How's my business benefit others? And who is it that I want to benefit? Who is it that I want to support? How can I do that? And how can I do it in a way that while I'm working my way up to that, I'm playing out my goals as well. So I just kind of wanted to add that because in this whole conversation of fear of getting it wrong, and doing the wrong thing and stuff, you don't realise that you could be missing out on some amazing, like big picture stuff. It feels a bit like, I've got to admit it feels a bit like Yeah, it does feel selfish for me talking about it in that way. And that's not the aim of it. But it was a really nice benefit of doing that work as well.

Jayne Ashby 34:18
Good, because I will always and that's really nice. And thank you for saying that because it does it makes me like a little bit kind of warm inside. It's really nice because these are foundations that you are creating. Yeah, but whatever happens next, and those foundations that you're creating will not only be within your business, they will be visible within the conversations that you will have with other business owners, other people that you collaborate with, with your suppliers with your family. It kind of starts to sort of, you know, kind of like, infiltrate who you are, and who comes into contact with you. And again, it's like, that's what the whole point is. For me, it's not that kind of clear separation between, ultimately we focus on business. But it's not a clear separation.

Yeah, yeah,

Ruth Poundwhite 35:26
there's a ripple effect in all different ways. So, yeah, it's really important, actually, I think it's very important to see people modelling certain ways of doing things. And that plays into it massively. So I just wanted to ask you, actually, what's your big vision? Because like, obviously, you do this work with business owners, what drives you? And I know, that's like a big question. But I would love to hear.

Jayne Ashby 35:55
So what drives me is hearing feedback that you've just said about how you found our time together. What drives me is continuing to help people have those uncomfortable conversations, to help people say what they don't think they should say, or could say. And just to encourage people to think differently, and it's, it's really strange that that being a coach, and I've been coaching for a while, that's always been who I am. And part of my makeup is to kind of talk to people and just spin things around reframe. Let's dig into stuff. And I can't see that changing. I can't ever see that changing, because I absolutely love it. Because as much as I get as much from sessions with my clients, as I hope they do from working with me. And it kind of is that kind of it feels like it's a very much a two way process, because working with people helps me continue to grow. The challenges help help continue to help me to think differently as well. So yeah, I, and I just, it gives me so much pleasure. But who knows where what will happen, where it will go and things like that. But yeah,

Ruth Poundwhite 37:34
it could, yeah, that ripple effect, like you said, and it's just the power of deep conversation as well. I quite like that. But like, I truly, genuinely believe that deep and honest, like vulnerable conversation can change the world for the better. And I guess that this, this actually, this, something just clicked in my brain? Because I've always known Well, I've definitely been thinking aware of that lately. But then you talking about how early we're saying, you know, the importance of it being a conversation. It's not, you're wrong, you're right, you're someone has a go. It's like, it's a conversation, and this is this is part of that, like is it can change everything for the better.

Jayne Ashby 38:15
absolutely can. And I think I think we all can think of experiences. And you know, I'm not kind of going to go there too much. But I think we can all have seen what happens when businesses might do things that don't seem to kind of match with their value. And it's again, it's that kind of will have you have you done that deep conversation about why it's good to have that value? are you just saying it because you think it looks good? And, you know, do you really, truly believe in that. And if you don't believe in it, don't say it, that's fine. It's not saying that there is this checklist of what we should all be saying. It's like, if you don't believe in it, that's absolutely fine. But if you are going to say that, and if you are building your business around these values, and if you are behaving in that way, then that's just just sub chat. Make sure that you genuinely understand what that means. Because otherwise, we'll get you know, the mistakes that will be made will be bigger. Yeah, yeah. I think then, just maybe looking at, you know, accessibility or things like that, where, you know, at least you can say that you've done the work and at least you now are in a place where you are confident that you're coming from a place of good intention. And that matches your values as opposed to feeling Oh, I should really do some work around inclusion. Yeah, that's not good for anyone. Yeah.

Ruth Poundwhite 39:52
Oh, thank you. Okay. So, do you have any specific resources that you would point people in the direction of If they wanted to understand more start start their journey or deepen their journey with this.

Jayne Ashby 40:08
There are

there are some fantastic people again, I'm going to point everyone to social media. So sorry. There are some fantastic people on social media that are worth following, I think just to sort of get you thinking they are. And obviously sort of links can be provided. But there are two sisters, sisters, Natalie and Naomi. And they run a cat, an Instagram account called everyday racism. And they are amazing. And also, there is another Instagram account called language matters. And again, that account sort of just talks about, again, language, but certain terms that we might use every day. And it just gives you a little bit of the history behind them, and to why those terms might be seen as problematic. Oh, I love it. There's so there's actually I'm just trying to think of who else I got those two people, those two accounts have sprung to mind. But actually, what I probably would do is I'll probably share sort of my top sort of five accounts with you. And then you could probably put those on the show notes. Yeah, thank

Ruth Poundwhite 41:32
you. Because I know I lost my brain, I did totally put you on the spot with this question. And obviously, your account would be very useful for everyone to follow. And I will include all the links in the show notes. Okay, thank you. This has been a really, really great conversation. I love getting deep about this. And I love the fact that we can talk very openly about it. And I hope that it's been helpful for people listening. I know it will. I'm just going to end with a random question, which is, what is something that you think everyone should do at least once in their lives?

Jayne Ashby 42:06
So generally, I this question is quite funny, because I'm, I'm actually quite boring. And something that people should do. I would say, go out late dancing on a school night is something that should be done. At least once. That might sound very boring. But for me, I'm usually in bed by like eight watching, you know, something that Midsomer Murders. So yeah, go out on a night when you shouldn't Tuesday night. When we could go out, I know,

Ruth Poundwhite 42:46
it actually does sound really exciting right now because we can't do anything.

Jayne Ashby 42:52
Anything but yeah, things like that. Like occasionally those little things will give me absolute joy, obviously, sort of my lack of sleep, it will just affect me for the next week after but at times when we could do that, you know, it was just one of the most fantastic things ever, just to kind of forget about everything that was going on. Yeah. And any responsibilities. I do appreciate that. Not everyone has the ability to to roll off on a Tuesday night. But I would definitely recommend doing something that lets you down that you wouldn't normally do is always exhilarating. I could really use that right now.

Ruth Poundwhite 43:29
Anyway, thank you. Thank you so much. I'm gonna put all the links in the show notes. And yeah, I hope that the ripple effect of people listening to this will be Yeah, will be. I don't know. A good one. That's really a rubbish way to end. But in

Jayne Ashby 43:49
turn is a beautiful way.

Ruth Poundwhite 43:54
Yes. Okay. Thank

Jayne Ashby 43:54
you. Thank you.

Ruth Poundwhite 43:57
And if you want to find out more about Jane and what she does, you can find her on her website, the hyphen, alternative credit UK and on Instagram at the underscore alternative underscore x. We've also put links in the show notes to all those accounts that she recommends you go follow, so definitely check out her work is super, super useful and super important to you. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of creatively human. If you have a moment I'd be so grateful if you could rate and review the podcast, it really does make a difference. And if you'd like to carry on the conversation or ask a question for a future q&a episode, there are three ways to connect with me on the Facebook group on Instagram at Ruth Poundwhite or my personal favourite, my behind the scenes newsletter. Just go to Ruth poundwhite.com forward slash newsletter to subscribe and keep doing what you're doing because your work really does matter.

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Show Notes

Today I’m chatting with Jayne Ashby, a qualified life and career coach helping independent businesses talk about diversity and become more inclusive. We discuss what inclusivity means, why small business owners should be thinking about it, the fears that get in the way, and how we make this part of the conversation and be willing to make mistakes along the way. This is SUCH a helpful chat, enjoy!

“so much more growth happens when we get things wrong or when we fail”

Some of the things we talked about:

  • What does inclusivity mean? (& specifically for business owners)
  • Why even small business owners should think about it from the start
  • Advice for getting started with inclusivity
  • Fears that get in the way of this work
  • Making it a conversation and being willing to get it wrong
  • What drives Jayne's work in this area

Links from this episode:

Other episodes you might like:

“the moment that you have the idea to start your business, is the moment where inclusion should be a part of your strategy

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Thanks so much for listening!

When you subscribe to updates you get access to 3 bonus episodes of the podcast – exclusively for email subscribers – that dive behind the scenes of my business (I talk about failures, money, community & more!)